Listserv Archives

Dear Teachers Network Leadership Institute (TNLI) MetLife Fellows:

November was a very successful listserv discussion month thanks to all of you and Greta Hawkins!

Let’s keep the momentum going into the December discussion, hosted by San Francisco and moderated by Jeff Issenberg (San Francisco, Director of TNLI). The reading for December will be “Short on Power, Long on Responsibility,” by Richard M. Ingersoll, published in Educational Leadership (2007, Sept.). You can access the article by downloading the attachment or on our website: http://teachersnetwork.org/tnli/tnli_readings_resources.htm.

Please remember to sign your e-mail with your full name and the city of your affiliate when posting so that we can all get to know each other better.

Thanks so much to everyone who participated and we look forward to this December conversation, led by Jeff and the San Francisco TNLI affiliate!

Ellen, Peter, and Anna
New York City
11/30/07

Hi everybody,

I am the Program Manager of the Teachers Leadership Institute, the San Francisco affiliate of TNLI and a program of the San Francisco Education Fund.  I'm the moderator for the December discussion.  Our reading, "Short on Power, Long on Responsibility," by Richard Ingersoll coincidently appeared in the September 2007 issue of Educational Leadership along with November’s article. The September issue of Educational Leadership focused on the theme of "Teachers As Leaders." Anna sent out the Ingersoll article as an attachment in her e-mail on November 30 and also posted it to TNLI’s
Readings and Resources page: http://teachersnetwork.org/tnli/tnli_readings_resources.htm

This was taken from Ingersoll's publication page: http://www.gse.upenn.edu/faculty/ingersoll.html#pub2   Take a look.  He has a lot of interesting work on the issue of teacher turnover, teacher power and control of teachers.

Ingersoll's findings show that the combination of high levels of accountability placed on teachers and low levels of teacher power, both characteristics of No Child Left Behind, have a direct impact on “the amount of student behavioral problems; teachers' sense of commitment, efficacy, and engagement; the degree of collegiality and cooperation among faculty and between faculty and administrators; and the levels of teacher retention and turnover.”

I'd like to focus our attention mostly on the issue of teacher retention and turnover.  Here at the San Francisco Ed fund we've been looking at the issue of maldistribution of experienced teachers, highlighting that the schools in San Francisco that serve the poorest students of color have the greatest number of new, inexperienced teachers. In an effort to address this issue I think that it's essential to ask the following questions:

• Why do teachers leave low performing schools/schools that serve low income students of color?  In what ways does this have to do with teachers being "short on power, long on responsibility"?
• How are the working conditions more supportive in higher performing schools?
• What supports or infrastructure changes are needed to keep the best teachers from leaving these schools?  (Let's not limit ourselves by what we think is possible in the current education funding climate.  Let's say what we really think is needed to create an equitable system of education)
• What is the educational experience of students in low performing schools that have such high teacher turnover? Specifically, how does the teacher turnover affect the learning experience of students? And, in keeping with the notion that ‘teacher working conditions are student learning conditions,’ how do these working conditions affect students learning in other ways?

Please share your thoughts or experiences on these issues.  I'm looking forward to hearing from you.

Jeff Issenberg

Hi Jeff,

Ingersoll hits the bull's eye when he enumerated many sad and varied reasons why teachers leave the profession or transfer to high-performing schools. If the insane work schedule we keep is not reason enough, then isn't the lack of affirmation and validation of
teachers as passionate, caring and intelligent individuals toiling in the stultifying atmosphere of scripted curricula adding insult to injury? It is de rigueur to see teachers in low-performing schools flipping through four to five different "mandated" teachers'
guidebooks (covering math, reading, social studies, English language development and science) for the entire day. By the very nature of its inflexibility, these curricula disseminated to teachers without regard for the educators' opinions or input is stunting teachers' creativity and originality. Students are the victims as well. They do suffer in a manner reminiscent of the characters in Kafka's novels.

Are the students engaged, excited, invigorated about the disjointed themes presented in these guidebooks? I could attest to the mind-numbing effects of scripted curricula which may well also be one of the greatest reasons why teachers move to high-performing schools.

Scripted curricula from 8:40-2:40 do not leave a lot of time for meaningful and ponderous lessons and activities students need nowadays to survive the harried demands of daily lives. Critical thinking, problem-solving, collaborating, being exposed to various
environmental ideologies, molding them to formulate responsible choices about the world around them will enable them to be better citizens of the world.

Teachers from high performing schools are not mandated by the district to follow these sort of curricula precisely because their scores are high enough that they could afford to teach project-based oriented lessons while the rest of the caboodle have to be subjected
to the daily scripted grind.

Why are the poor underserved? Why are the children from low-performing schools perpetually divorced from an enriching, innovative, rigorous curriculum their well-off peers are enjoying?

Why subject our children to testing at a young age? What kind of a society is this where test scores determine your worth as an individual or community? What makes a Utopian setting for learning?

Maybe it doesn't exist, but the following could also be factors affecting teacher turn-over. In a setting where white middle class and upwardly mobile minority groups are the clientele, parent involvement is quite evident. Vigorous fund-raising efforts are the norm to finance trips abroad, innovative class/school projects, art or outdoor programs and many other state of the art technological wonders. Wouldn't any teacher be tempted to move to this haven of intense creativity and upward mobility? How can low performing
schools achieve this as well? The underserved population, is well, underserved.

Immigrant families could barely survive on a daily basis that auctions and fund-raising are not just as exciting or a priority for them. It brings to mind that the administration has to be inspired to propel community participation and inspire a sense of belongingness despite all the hurdles. The school climate dictates how successful a school would be, academically and socially—for both of the staff and the students!

Maybe a more enlightened administration that cherishes hard-working, well-intentioned staff is also what draws educators to high-performing schools. Well-stated goals and expectations in terms of discipline are key to a smooth-sailing academic year for discipline will never be a problem if teachers are allowed to teach with reasonable freedom and innovation. Students will be engaged, energized and excited to come to school when their educators don't have the tired, frustrated face of defeat but a smile of hope, optimism and belief in the educational system of this country.

joalreldas@sbcglobal.net
Affiliate?
12/6/07

I believe there is a delicate combination one must possess to be a teacher. One must be both Type A (organized) and Type B (creative). Usually people are more one or the other. It is as if those first very frustrating years of teaching are spent learning to find the balance they need to strike between the two, as well as developing the less dominate traits. 

When joalreldas@sbcglobal.net wrote about scripted lessons, this theory I have about teaching came to mind. Unfortunately, the more creative Type B part gets pushed to the side in these scripted programs. The creative Type B stuff is what keeps me teaching. At the same time, in my current position, I literally have no curriculum to work from. I am okay with that now because I have been teaching long enough that I know how to be creative with my curriculum and be organized at the same time. But, I don't know if I would have been able to handle it as a first year teacher. I started as a NYC Teaching Fellow and knew nothing about English resources when I began. I was trained to be a "generalist" in special education. I had a little bit of everything, with an emphasis on literacy. In those first years, I would have loved to have a (nearly) scripted curriculum. 

The problem is that in this word of accountability we as teachers are not respected and expected to know what we are doing enough to know when to do what. I spend 6 hours a day with children, yet Congress and business people who have never met my students, get to tell me what they need!? It just doesn't make any sense, and it is a bit insulting to me. I am all about accountability, but we want more accountability, then we must also be given the respect we deserve when it comes to our professional judgment. This is what this month's article  Short on Power, Long on Responsibility is really pointing to, and, for me, it is the heart of why people leave teaching. After all, I am expected to be the highest authority in the classroom, yet, at the same time, when I leave that classroom, I am the last one consulted when it comes to the needs of that same classroom?! Give me a break.  You can't have it both ways.

Anne Looser
New York City
12/6/07

As I read through this article and then the responses from colleagues, I have to concur that what is experienced in the classroom is something no one would believe. I have threatened for years to write a book that illustrated my day-to-day schedule, the e-mails I get from administration and various other "authorities in the know," and so on. How ironic is it that I can only think of one national organization that is directly connected to the needs of teachers—TNLI. Other professional organizations want teacher membership and without naming them, I am wondering whether the agenda is oriented toward a collaborative means by which administration, teachers, students, and schools become a unifying force toward one goal? I have ceased to pay membership dues in these organizations as I don't see how so many lobbyists can be a productive adventure particularly when it doesn't include teachers. Further, some of these organizations charge more dues for members on the east coast than those who live on the west coast. Ouch!

Whether a teacher is creative and organized seems to be two skills that the majority of us have. Now, whether a teacher can be flexible and have the skills to immediately diverge into another lesson when the first one doesn't go right is a skill I was taught from my first principal, Diana C., and I bless her everyday for it. The hallmark of teachers needs to be our ability to not only act professional but to collectively demand it from the community in which we work, and to display our talents and gifts through our lessons by our positive talk as well as hang our degrees and professional development certificates in the classroom. Teachers continue to get a bad rap for a variety reasons, but namely, because we do leave the classroom early in our careers, we are seen as inflexible, and we don't go on for higher degrees and very few of us engage in professional activities as teacher research. 

I am writing this whereby the eyes who read this already know, understand my meanings, and are active professionals. We need to reach those in our schools who think teaching is a paycheck, a summer break, and snow days. And, you all know who I am talking about. Yeah, I live for summer breaks too, but guess what? I do research on my travels or I blog, or I am considering how to set up my research project. And, yes, I always force my mind to shut down for 2 weeks at the end of school and 2 weeks before school begins again. Why my tenacity? For the very reason that teachers are short on power, and long on responsibility. I expect to earn that respect from my students and my administration and colleagues. In fact, I quietly work so hard on it that most people don't really understand the depth of my determination. I'm not going to show my resentment for the career I chose for myself to others. That's counterproductive to all of us and to myself as a professional. I can't be a one person show and neither can Jo and Anne who have also written in. We can't join those above mentioned organizations to gain teacher power because they have their own working agendas. We can only "hit the bulls-eye" and "illuminate" to the others outside our boxes when we have a collective teacher voice. I am crossing my fingers that TNLI will be that force because after all, it was started by teachers for teachers and continues to work with teachers. We need more chapters, a nationwide policy platform, and a specific working model that all our voices can reach using positive language about us as teachers and how we view ourselves as professionals. After all, I have 157 kids walking through my door this year that I affect in one way or another and if I multiply that number by the 12 years I have been teaching, that's a lot of kids who have left my classroom at the end of the year laughing with joy that school is finally out and then crying because they are going to miss me-- and I them. Let's consider how we talk about each other as teachers and our profession, then let's tackle the short on power and long on responsibility together.

Heidi Willard
Fairfax, VA
12/7/07

I think we should move away from talking about "good" teachers and "bad" teachers and move toward contextualizing the conditions that make good teaching possible or impossible. Ingersoll begins to touch on this idea when he writes about the "accuracy of the diagnosis" as being important from an accountability perspective. True, some people
have an innate gift and others work very hard at being successful, and of course, there are some who are just bad no matter how you look at it. But we all know there are so many variables when it comes to administrators, scheduling, students' needs, working conditions, resources, and adaptability. Sometimes someone might flourish under X
conditions, but flounder under Y conditions. Another person might flourish under Y conditions, but flounder under X. Is this person a "bad" teacher, or just not in the right environment for them? Perhaps Anne would have flourished with scripted lesson plans in her first year of teaching, but Jo would have lost all motivation to teach had he been forced to use a scripted curriculum. Perhaps it is a matter of finding the right match.

Certainly when we discuss the Mayor's plans for a "Gotcha" unit we must keep this in mind. Will his team of lawyers contextualize the so-called "bad" teacher's working conditions and degree of control over his/her environment before coming to the conclusion that they are a lost cause? What about the administrators who may not be doing their job in TRULY supporting a teacher? Where is the "Gotcha" unit for them?

But, I always try to remain positive and figure out a way to make the conditions workable, otherwise I know I will succumb to the trap of complaining without doing anything to change the situation. So I have been thinking a lot this year about the idea of "creative subversion" and how it relates to teacher leadership and power relationships
within the building. Sometimes one must be politically savvy in order to be left alone long enough to do the "real" work—what we know our students need and deserve—that may be inhibited by poor administration, test prep, scripted curriculum, or whatever the
reason. I think this is an essential quality of any teacher leader.

Furthermore, Ingersoll is right on the money when he talks about teachers' control over student behavior issues (or more accurately, lack of control) being a huge reason why so many teachers leave the classroom so early in their careers. It's simply not fair to blame
teachers for lacking classroom management skills if they are also not given the support they need to control the class (and I'm talking REAL support, as in enough bodies in the school to handle the range of needs -- ESL, special ed, guidance counselors, social workers, security aides, substitute teachers, and a strong leader who is an effective disciplinarian). But it happens all the time. I know several talented former colleagues who have already left teaching because they feel they are being "set up to fail"—in other words, held responsible for things they had virtually no control over.

An example: A former talented art teacher I know was written up for not enforcing her school's uniform policy -- when the same students refused to comply even for the principal. According to the DOE discipline code, the principal cannot really punish the student for refusing to comply (nor should they, in my opinion, because it is public school after all, and many of the students were assigned to the school through no choice of their own), and the students know that.

Now how can the teacher be held responsible for student defiance when the administration cannot even really make them comply? After enduring a year of situations like this (the school uniform being the least of her worries), unfortunately, she left teaching altogether.

Anyway, I wholeheartedly agree with Ingersoll that having control over the work for which we are responsible is essential to feeling successful about our work and staying in the field. This is a HUGE issue as districts fight year after year to keep good (and potentially good) teachers. Why do districts spend millions to recruit and train so many new teachers every year, but never seem to ask why so many teachers leave and how we might have kept them?

Erin McCrossan Cassar
New York City
12/9/07

This article speaks of a wrong diagnosis and wrong prescription in the movement for greater accountability by "tightening the grip on teachers"; discussing how teachers are held most accountable but through the research, are shown to be the individuals who (in most circumstances) have the least power.

The article states that teachers often have little control over the curriculum; to the point that the textbooks they are required to use are not even their choice. It seems to me that there exists an honest perspective among some administrators that teachers have great power because they are the only adult in a classroom, even in situations were they are mandated to teach a specific curriculum with specific books. In fact, teachers do have great power in that situation but not necessarily over the types of data and academic achievement that they are being held accountable for.

For teachers to be held accountable in a fair manner, there has to be an open dialogue between administration and staff about what curriculum is achieving the desired goal and both sides have to listen to what research shows is actually happening. In addition, administrators and staff have to come to terms on how to help disruptive students. We've all had disruptive students in our classroom and it is unfair for a teacher to be summarily judged a poor classroom manager if they can't get a student who represents a chronic behavior problem to settle down. That child deserves the support and services needed to achieve academic success and just shuffling students from teacher to teacher without looking at the underlying cause for the poor behavior doesn't solve the long-term problem. It also doesn't help that some teachers are quick to judge a colleague as ineffective when that colleague seeks help through the appropriate administrative channels. We must stop judging one and other because students are unique and there is no one "quick fix" or "answer" that will get a student to cooperate and work if they have great issues they are struggling with.

Maybe a better way to measure accountability is to look at a child over the YEARS they are in a building so that the very real changes that students undergo in adolescence can more effectively be addressed. Anyone who has worked in a middle school knows that there are distinct differences between a sixth grader, seventh grader, and eighth grader and that there is a reason that most teachers struggle with seventh grade.

By the same token, it seems to me that there is no one "perfect model of a teacher" and I think we need to recognize that when we define accountability and how to measure it. If we want to achieve a greater balance for teachers between responsibility and power and make teachers more empowered within the school structure, then we most find common ground among all teachers. 

Kate O'Hagan
New York City
12/11/07

Hello TNLI fellows,
I want to thank those of you who have participated so far in the December listserv discussion on Ingersoll's "Short on Power, Long on Responsibility": Josie from San Francisco, Annie, Erin and Kate from New York and Heidi from Fairfax, VA. I would like to encourage more Fellows to participate and share your thinking on the root causes of teacher turnover, particularly in schools that serve low income communities of color.  Please chime in even if you haven't had a chance to read the article yet. I would like to redirect the conversation to a more personal level. Much in the way that action research is reflection on one's own practice I would like to have us look at the personal decisions we've made about where we work?

Here are my original questions, tweaked a bit for a more personal response:

• In the course of your teaching career have you ever decided to, or struggled with deciding whether or not to leave a low performing school to go to higher performing school, or to leave a school that serves predominantly low income students of color for a more affluent school, or even struggled with the decision to leave teaching altogether?  What conditions led to this? 
• How are the working conditions more supportive in higher performing schools? 
• What supports or infrastructure changes are needed to keep teachers from leaving these schools?
• What's working where you currently teach to keep you there?

Thanks in advance for sharing your thoughts with us.  Please keep the subject heading consistent and sign all posts with your name and TNLI affiliate.

Jeff Issenberg
San Francisco
12/17/07

Good questions. I'll tackle the last one. What is working for me is each day looking at what I was able to accomplish in spite of the obstacles. I focus on the small successes and try very hard to put the disappointments into context. I am short on power, long on responsibility, and extremely wide on hope.

Greta Hawkins
New York affiliate
12/19/07

I am a teacher working in Brooklyn, New York at an international school for newly immigrated students. Our school serves only students who are English language learners. We teach English through all content areas.

Recently, our school was given ratings of a high performing school through the report card system, as well through our school quality reviews given by an external reviewer. I am very happy that both of these reviews were actually reflective of what is working at
our school, and that is giving teachers enough time to collaborate.

If teachers are given added responsibility and autonomy to create their own curriculum, in addition to meeting state standards, they need to be given common time to prepare their lessons together. The professional development that takes place in this informal planning time is often better than planned professional development. Due to this common planning time, teachers feel a sense of intellectual growth and support, which encourages many of our teachers to continue working at our school.

In conjunction to the common planning, our school requires inter-teacher observations. Teachers are able to choose who they would like to observe and be observed by in the school. In the past, when funds have been available, teachers would get paid per
session to write up their observations and conference with each other. This has been a very strong method of retaining teachers, as it is non-threatening and truly builds a community amongst teachers as professionals.

I have been at our school for five years, and as long as we continue to have this type of support, I think I will find my job satisfying.

Shahzia Pirani-Mellstrom
New York Affiliate
12/20/07

I teach 5th grade CTT at PS 158, Manhattan.

I have a bit of a different lens when approaching some of the questions posed by Jeff. I
teach at a high performing school in an affluent section of Manhattan. While we certainly do have children of wealthy Upper Eastsiders, we also have a majority of children who come from working class families, as well as children who have transferred to our school under NCLB.

I struggle quite a bit with the fact that I am not teaching at a low performing school (this is not to say that my school is without its own share of problems, of course). At the end of every year, I think about leaving to go serve at a more "troubled" school, but the comfort of staying somewhere where I have been for years, where there is an active parent body, ample opportunities for meaningful professional development that teachers choose and want, and a supportive principal, pulls me back.

When I speak at length with colleagues who do work at poorer schools, we soon come to the understanding that we struggle with many of the same issues. At the same time, we also deal with issues that are central to the school populations that we work with. For example, as much as I feel supported at my school, there is also backlash that
comes with the perks I mentioned above: parents who question every single thing my partner and I do, students whose stress levels are so intense from the pressure to get into a "good" middle school (and college) that it is beginning to manifest itself in a number of
unhealthy ways, and an increased focus on staying high performing, at all costs (test prep, test prep, test prep). This is enough to make even the most collegial staff turn competitive.

I fear that if we compartmentalize schools as "in need" and "not in need," we begin to lose sight of the bigger picture: the education system, not just individual schools, need help; my kids on the Upper East Side need me as much as my best friend's kids in East Harlem.

Ingersoll may be correct when he states that "good" schools are schools where "teachers have more control over school wide and classroom decisions," but I fear this can be misconstrued as a panacea for all school problems when, in fact, we all know the issues run far deeper than "good" and "bad."

Barb Golub
NYC Affiliate
12/21/07

I felt that Jeff's questions pertained to me, so I wanted to chime in. I taught for two years at a tough school in South Williamsburg, Brooklyn. I was a NYC Teaching Fellow, ready to save the world, thoroughly convinced that all any child needed was a little more love.
As is the case with many Fellows, apart from a brief stint in a summer school, the last time I had been in a classroom was when I was a student. Like lions, my students could smell the fresh meat. I still tell the story of my first day of school, when (for reasons I could easily avoid now) there was a group of kids jumping up and down in my classroom, rioting, and shouting, "I want to learn! I want to learn!" I was backed up into a corner, totally at a loss as to how to proceed.

After this rather shaky beginning, I kept up the good fight. Speaking of fights, there were fights in my classroom almost daily. I soon learned that calling security was a waste of time. Eventually, I learned strategies for keeping the kids silent during independent
reading time (bribing them with pizza was effective). But I could not get through a lesson without students calling out, interrupting me, and fighting. It was right around this time when, in the news, a teacher jumped in front of a train. She survived, and when she was
questioned, all she would say is that she couldn't make them stop talking. I understood a little too well. I tried being meaner and tougher, which is what I perceived the children at this school respected. Somehow little hippy dippy white girl just didn't scare anyone.

In the two years I spent at that school, I learned so much about myself, and so much about why education grinds to a halt at these types of schools. The problem is, I learned very little about good teaching. There were, of course, good teachers at this school. (Hi Amber, Hi Z!) Knowing this, I felt even more of a failure. Ultimately, the reason I left that school was because I felt that I was sincerely failing the kids. I could not teach them. They could not learn, because I could not establish a base line of normalcy in the
classroom. I will always remember the day I interviewed at my present school. I had left this hellish scene where one girl (transferred into my classroom from East New York for fighting too much) had stomped on another little girl until her arm came out of its socket.
When I explained at the interview why I was flustered, they looked me in the eyes and promised that that type of thing never happened at PS 10.

This is my second year at PS 10. The school has its problems, to be sure. But violence is just not one of them. Granted, it is an elementary school and not a middle school, and maybe that is a big part of it. You walk through halls and peer into classrooms and you
see students engaged in learning. The school is a Title 1 School and serves poor kids just like my old one, but they are generally working poor. Most are not from projects. They don't have scars from bullets grazing them or knives stabbing them at the age of ten. The kids don't take one look at me and know that I will never understand.

The strange thing is, now, I feel that I could teach in my old school. Maybe I am kidding myself, but I think I have learned management strategies that work. I have learned to tell the kids at the door, before they even come into the classroom, what I expect them to do
when they go in. I have learned that students need structure and routine. I have learned that I need to plan for every detail in a lesson so that materials are ready. I have learned that when kids are off task, it is usually because they don't understand the task, and I
need to explain it better.

Maybe this is all just a function of it being in my fourth year teaching as opposed to my 1st and 2nd. Maybe if I had stuck it out at my old school, I would have improved. Really, I think teacher retention is all about teachers feeling successful. Happy teachers are teachers that can actually teach.

What kind of support was I missing at my old school that I am getting now? The difference for me is less about support and more about the lack of violence. My school has somehow created a violence is not tolerated/not a possibility atmosphere. Somehow the charade that students must do what teachers tell them has been maintained.

I am not sure how to support new teachers in such an environment as my old school. I was earnest in my efforts to teach there, and I was given support in terms of curriculum. What I needed was the firm backing of a dean or administration. When students fought, they needed to be pulled out of my classroom immediately. I needed an experienced teacher to hold my hand for the first few months of school, helping me set up structures and routines that work in my classroom.

Maybe the Teaching Fellows program needs to provide Fellows with actual time in a functioning classroom before sending them into tough schools.

Debbie van Doren
New York City
12/22/07

Debbie, your response spoke to a lot of issues outside of a new teacher's control and the fact that it takes new teachers time to develop their skills.  It is amazing how much teachers learn in the span of a few short years and yet the system has a hard time supporting even this short learning curve.  

I think that you made an excellent point when you spoke about how teachers need their deans and assistant principals to support them.  Many of my more seasoned colleagues recall a time when new teachers didn't get the most challenging management classes and were given time to learn and hone their craft before being faced with students who had enormous social and emotional needs, in addition to needing academic instruction. However, at some schools these are the only types of classes that exist and so there is no choice but to put new teachers in these positions.

It is important that administrators not become satisfied with the "appearance" of learning.  Teachers can sometimes "manage" very difficult classes but that can be very different from "teaching" those same classes and I think that teachers who find themselves in this situation become frustrated because they don't feel they are effective educators. I agree with you when you say that retention is linked to a teacher feeling successful.  However, it sometimes seems that when teachers voice the desire to be able to do more then manage their classes, they are held accountable for not being able to accomplish this on their own.  I think everyone in the building has to aspire to the goal that all teachers have a climate in their classroom that allows them to teach.  Seasoned colleagues should not have to move on to a different school because they long to do more with their classes and new colleagues should not be lost from teaching because they are expected to manage challenging students without the appropriate support and support services.   

Kate O’Hagan
New York City
12/22/07