Listserv Archives

Dear TNLI Fellows, Advisors, and Directors:

The article for the April listserv conversation will be “How to Make Great Teachers,” by Claudia Wallis, Time, February 13, 2008. You can find this article by downloading the attachment or visiting our website here: http://teachersnetwork.org/tnli/tnli_readings_resources.htm. Thank you Teresa Thomas (TNLI Miami Fellow), for hosting the April listserv discussion!

Please remember to sign the e-mail with your full name and the city of your affiliate when posting so that we can all get to know each other better.

Thanks!
Ellen, Peter, and Anna

I am Teresa Thomas, a kindergarten teacher in Miami, Florida. I have been teaching for three years in the public school and three in private school. Becoming a teacher has always been my dream. This is my first year with TNLI and I am enjoying the meetings and my action research that I am doing.

The article "How to Make Great Teacher" was selected by our group because we are asking ourselves what is going on with the public school system all around. In the article it states Barack Obama "endorsed merit pay at a meeting of the of the National education Association, the nation's largest teachers' union, so long as the measure of merit is developed with teachers, not imposed on them and not based on some arbitrary test score." I agreed with Mr. Obama because all the merit pay and everything that are subjected for teachers all come from people that have not or never taught before. Hillary Clinton says "she does not support merit pay for individual teachers but does advocate
performance-based pay on a schoolwide basis." I do not agreed with Ms. Clinton.
I believe that the government needs to give more funding for education than send education monies to war. We teach because we want to train students to be productive citizens.

TNLI Miami inquiry about the article "How to Make Great Teachers":
1. Do any of our TNLI colleagues have a merit pay program in their district?
2. What measures are in place allowing special area teachers, i.e. music, art, phys ed, media specialists an opportunity to also be "rewarded?"
3. If we (the USA) have been obsessed with keeping up with the Jones' (since Sputnik), why are we not emulating some of these programs that are discussed at the end of the
article?
4. Professional development (PD) is important and necessary. However, not all PD is relevant and fulfilling. How can we amend that? What about taking some cues from the constructivists, and have teachers (the learners) construct their own learning?
5. What will happen to education in the future?
6. Will there be any competent teachers left in the school system?
7. Why do these issues of teaching continue to exist?
8. What is needed? Perhaps, the voice of the entire community must be heard in order for change to occur. These concerns will affect the entire society because without teachers, there will be no doctors, lawyers, police officer or policymakers.
9. How do you think merit pay impacts teachers and instruction?
10. If you were to design a merit pay program what would you be sure to include?
11. What tools should be used to measure the effectiveness of a teacher to warrant extra pay?
12. How does merit pay impact high-stake testing?
13. Should local, state, or federal funds be used to fund merit pay?
14. As the field of education has become a more female dominated profession, there has been less autonomy and salary. If the field of education had remained a male dominant profession, would the trend to promote less autonomy and salary to teachers continue?
15. Is the field of education becoming a more gender specific profession? Is the fact that the field of education being a female dominated profession the attributing factor as to why there is a continuing trend toward less autonomy and salary?

Teresa Thomas
Miami, FL
4/3/08

Hi Teresa,

While I admire you for taking on this responsibility of moderating this month's discussion, I'd like to address your comments re: merit pay and the Democratic presidential candidates. I hope that this month's discussion does not become a forum for debating political views. Even though it will become an issue for whomever wins the
nomination in August, I think that we should try to steer clear of that particular debate (for now.)

Of course, just my opinion.....

I always enjoy reading about "how it's done" in other schools/districts, no matter what the program/idea. The idea of merit pay sounds lovely as long as you are the one getting the merit pay.

In our district (Miami) and state (FL), schools that increase their yearly state-determined grade or maintain an "A" get a bonus. The dollar amount of the bonus is the number of students in the school x $100. The bonus is to be distributed at the discretion of the
school's faculty.

Each year that my school has received this money, there has been a wedge driven between the haves and the have-nots. Even the discussion leading up to the distribution leaves a sour taste in the mouth as some teachers feel that they 'deserve' more than their other professional colleagues. This flushes the school's morale down the
drain.

Now, imagine that the powers that be (including principals since they have to give input) determine that your neighbor across the hall or your team teaching partner are more valuable than you and they should receive a bonus of $3,400. Will you smile and congratulate them? Will you vow to be a better teacher so that you too can get that
bonus next year? Although that is the wishful thinking of state/district administration, I think not.

In my opinion, merit pay = divisiveness.

What do you think?

Dianna Rose
Miami TNLI
4/18/08

Dianna,

I believe that the merit pay for a school achieving a higher grade do divide the school as a whole.  Teachers that teach grade 3-6 do not think the teacher in the lower grade deserve any of the merit pay for getting a higher grade at their school.  I believe if it was not for the students former teachers some students would not have passed any test that was given to them.

Teresa Thomas
Miami, FL
4/19/08

Hello from CA!

I think any kind of "merit" pay for test scores (or student achievement ... and that is not just test scores), should be value-added. Growth should be measured by individual student growth, not measured across the board comparing everyone to a single standard or score. A teacher at my school inherited a wonderful class of students that were the lowest (test score wise) at her grade level. She has made tremendous gains with them this year, but they are still behind because they came in two years behind already. Even if they make up a years progress, they would still not get the "scores" as some of their peers at the same grade level that came in on grade-level.  Primary teachers can and do show student progress throughout the year as well.  You are right Teresa, primary teachers help build the foundation for the future learning of those students in upper grades.

I am not an expert at "Merit" pay, but as a Milken educator, I have heard a lot about the TAP program across the county. TAP is mentioned in the article as well.  What TAP calls their "merit pay" is compensation.  It is being compensated for leading professional development, and compensation for taking on roles in addition to classroom teaching, and compensation for your expertise. Isn't that what NBC stipends are?  I am not sure what the best way would be to "reward" teachers, but I do know that teachers should be the ones helping to create such systems.

The Time article, How to Make Great Teachers should really be (in my opinion)... How to Make and Keep Great Teachers.  As a veteran teacher, I have watched many talented, passionate, new teachers come into the profession and after a few years want something more.  They need it and seek it and if our profession does not provide a place for these educators to grow, they will (and have) leave.  We need more of a career ladder for educators. Someone once said, "What other profession do you know of that you start and end your career with the same exact title and job description?"

Just some random thoughts on a Saturday.
Jane Fung
Los Angeles, CA
4/19/08

As a vocational teacher in a vocational high school this is a sore subject.  I am required by administration to integrate across the curriculum adding math and English components to my own course curriculum.  We even receive training after the state testing to know the weak areas across the school population, and they want us to gear our integration toward those weak areas. 

Interestingly enough if merit pay were to come to school, many would not think that the vocational teachers should get any of it.  When in fact much of what we do is put math and English in context of the "real" world and not just the world of academia.

Cathy Young
Delaware
4/20/08

Hello Cathy,

I am at an elementary school and it is a sore subject here in Miami, Fl.  The art, music, PE and Spanish teachers have to assist in third through fifth grade classes for extra support for the at-risk students.  These teachers can not understand why they have to teach curriculum that they were not hired to do, but they do it because they were asked. Some of these teachers were almost left out of the merit pay received two years for our school grade going from a "C" to a "B".  Everyone had to vote on the proposal and these teachers did receive their merit pay.  Because we work as a family at school everyone is now counting to get merit pay when our grades go up this school year (we believe that our grades will be higher). Everyone should be counted in the numbers when our students achieve academically and in testing.

Teresa Thomas
Miami, FL
4/20/08

Merit pay for student achievement is a difficult concept to implement.  My success with my students depends on how well prepared they have been in all the years before I received them.  It also depends on what is going on in their personal lives this year.  Their success depends on how much guidance is available when they need it and how much administration steps in to support a teacher when behavior issues get in the way of academic achievement.  The reality is, what teacher would opt for the most challenging and difficult classes if their academic achievement is the measure of the teacher's pay?  I help guide young adults through many issues beyond the curriculum and former students have told me that my labors with them paid off in the years after I had them—and there is no way to effectively measure this. 

Kate O’Hagan
New York, NY
4/20/08

Hello Kate,

I also believe that it is difficult to established merit pay for student achievement because students learn at their own pace. Students should be prepared for the next grade level, but the reality is that many students fall through the crack in the school system and are lagging behind. Teachers do need administrators to help them with students' behavior, the reality is most administrators have so many different hats that disciplining students has fallen short. Students with behavior problems usually cause teacher to stay focused on them instead of the whole class. Thereby some students will not get the extra attention they deserve. I agree that many teachers would opt to have challenging and difficult classes if they knew that would get additional pay.     

Teresa Thomas
Miami, FL
4/20/08

If merit pay isn't, at the very least, based on student growth, rather than "achievement," then it is merely another method of ensuring that middle class, suburban districts continue to attract and retain highly qualified and experienced teachers. At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy nut, I wonder if that wasn't the driving force all along. We have seen districts bend over backwards to retain this population in public schools. Not that I have anything against that population, but if social equity is purported to be the goal...?

Susan Gold
San Francisco
4/20/08

Hello Susan,

The possibility that the merit pay could have been started to keep the highly qualified teacher in the best district could be possible.  When you read magazines and newspaper articles concerning teacher pay and incentives, sometimes you wonder what the teaching profession has become. Teaching seemed to be the last profession that gets any good comment in today’s society. Twenty to forty years ago the teaching profession was in the top five careers to be in (what has happened?).

Teresa Thomas
Miami, FL  
4/21/08

Good morning from Chicago, everyone!

As I read through this strand two comments really made me pause. I've always been on the fence about merit pay but Dianna really brought it home for me when she talked about the principal and staff deciding who gets what in the school. That's horrible. It struck a chord because I've been at my high-poverty/hard to staff inner-city-school for 15 years now. Although I'm one of the most qualified (and still growing) teachers here, my new principal (who was my former assistant principal that I helped select as the chair of the principal selection committee last year) doesn't like me and continually "leaves me out" of committees and projects I was once involved in. He's taken to "grooming" two teachers in particular here. When Dianna made her comment I pictured what merit pay would look like at my school (and it wasn't a pretty picture). In reality, many times performance has nothing to do with it: politics does.

Jane talked about the TAP program, which sounds better, but again, even if you have highly motivated/qualified teachers in your building if the principal doesn't favor you, you're out of luck.

I don't have the answer, but maybe a start would be to have teachers create a portfolio of sorts that they would have to present to a Board (with outside as well as inside representatives from their school) where they would have to explain why they are deserving of some sort of merit pay....

Have a good one,

Nicole Zumpano
Chicago
4/21/08

I love that idea Nicole! I think that merit pay in those forms could be really great. When it is up to 1 or 2 people to decide, politics can come into play, especially in certain schools. But if teachers had a chance to present themselves fairly to an outside board? Or even anonymously, where names are not attached to portfolios?

Often, I find also that you can generally get a consensus, at least in smaller schools/sites, of which teachers work very hard, and which do not. I think that merit pay programs that are based on a holistic picture and consensus building would obviously benefit every teacher and every student more than a test-score based one. Everyone at my school last year and this year could easily name 1-2 teachers who were simply going through the day for the check, and made little to no efforts with the children. I'm sure these people would not have been able to put together a good presentation or portfolio to get merit pay, not a holistic one. Either that, or maybe it would motivate them to actually do something with their students!

Also, what about merit pay that takes the form of classroom grants instead of salary bonuses? Most teachers I know would love to be able to add this software or these books to the classroom, and we never have enough money to do everything with our students that we want. Perhaps the extra pay could be put into school-based "grants" instead, where you fill out a grant application? I think many teachers would be motivated to do something like this as well, and it would directly benefit the achievement of students.

Audra Vanderland
New York City, NY
4/21/08

Audra,

Your comments about merit pay for portfolios as a possible solution is the best I've read so far.  I'd just want to be certain that the people doing the evaluation understood how to see a student's gains from start of year to later in the year. I'd like them to be proven educators themselves.  Sometimes non-educators are most impressed by "pretty" classrooms where much of the work is teacher generated or are simply the "best" of non-dated projects out on display year-after-year, long after the particular student that produced the work is out of the building. Don't get me wrong, I keep models of past projects to show my students what the goal for the end result is but I don't display these models in a current year if they are not current work.  Also, the work my students produce, even at the end of the year, can't always rival a "gifted" class but it does demonstrate how far my students have come personally in a year.  Finally, there is the issue of whether a teacher would need permission slips to have their student's work in their portfolio to present to outside "anonymous" boards?  All of these issues are addressable but they would have to actually be considered by the people doing the evaluating in order to be addressed. 

Also, the non-academic issues are not necessarily addressed by this approach. Again, much of my job can't be measured by academic achievement and my worry remains, who will take on classes where the students need so much emotional and service support to get through the year if academics are the only measure of merit pay?  I think merit pay still hinges on the idea that teachers must be measured by their curriculum instruction and it doesn't measure (at least not in middle school) all the other roles I have to play.  I'm not even sure these roles can be measured, since for the most part, they aren't "officially" acknowledged to the degree they should be by the education system, though certainly they are expected of most teachers. 

Kate O'Hagan
New York City, NY
4/21/08

This is a great thread you have going, and some very good ideas (I like the classroom grants idea, I have not heard that one before and have spent quite a bit of time looking at merit pay proposals).  There are two proposals that have risen to the top among teachers I have worked with, both produced by teachers.  These would be the Denver ProComp plan (http://denverprocomp.org/) and this proposal from the Center for Teaching Quality (http://www.teachingquality.org/pdfs/TSreport.pdf), the TAP schools also get a good look.  Obviously there are lots of questions to be answered in all of these, answers that should come from teachers…  Keep up the good thread.

Michael Rasmussen
Delaware
4/21/08

Hi Michael,

Thank you for sending the websites on your proposals.  There is a website www.donorschoose.org that lets you earn point when you write small grants for class needs or supplies.  As a community of teachers we must find ways to help get funds for our classes and schools.

Teresa Thomas
Miami, FL
4/21/08

Hi Kathleen,
I share many of your thoughts on this subject and agree that funds need to be found to pay for teachers to get together to collaborate.  In our district this is a reality, but with budget constraints that seem to be coming to our district, I wonder if support for this type of collaboration will be the first thing to go.  I hope not.  The time spent away from the students in my opinion helps me be more effective and efficient in the classroom.  We need time to do assessments, learn ways to revise methods, etc.  Problem solving and sharing with fellow teachers has been invaluable to me and my coworkers this year.  Thanks for your comments.

Mary Post
Santa Barbara, CA
4/21/08

I am a teacher who is on committee to develop a "merit pay" system similar to Denver's.  In fact we have the same consultants.  There are a few teachers on this committee of primarily central office staff who are professional developers and curriculum specialists.  There are administrators who are attending meetings too. The pilot begins in 10 schools this August but is expected to touch all schools within 5 years. If that happens where does the attraction factor go to teach in a challenging school like mine? 
 
The incentive will require all teachers (tested area teachers or not) to create two objectives (that can be student growth objectives) for evaluation. Teachers who have standardized assessments may choose to set a goal with that assessment, or they may use another assessment which could be teacher made.  The administrators are concerned about being the person who says "YES, the teacher met the objective or NO, they did not."  The administrators are concerned that there will not be consistency in the rigor of the objectives from one school to another. Professional development in this initiative will be key, with the principals trained to evaluate the objectives and write them as well.  We are considering how grievances will be handled too.   
 
While I am excited about possibly adding dollars to my check in this challenging economy, our district has yet to tell us how much a teacher will earn for meeting an objective.  When I think about this rolling out to the entire district, I know that they cannot possibly pay for everyone meeting their objectives every year.   
 
Another caveat that I have voiced is that I think teacher choice in this matter is important.  That removes professional jealousy from the equation.  National Board Certification is a choice and in our state earns a 12% increase in salary.  Adding to a teacher's salary is more beneficial in the long run to teachers since it can impact their retirement in a stronger way than bonuses or grants. 
 
Your comments about this extracurricular assignment of mine could really help us in Charlotte.
 
Suzanne Newsom
Charlotte, North Carolina
4/22/08

So, the goal is to improve teaching, the assessment is the state tests, the reward is more money ....mmm.
But, as always, how much control do we have over our students? (As a NBCT I choose to teach the high school basic math students. And, I would not want to be judged by their test scores!  (Although most show 2 years of growth, it still isn’t enough to do well on a 7th grade skills test- not when they usually start at 3rd or 4th grade – some at 2nd!)

What about the Singapore method I keep hearing about?  They give teachers lots of time for planning and collaborating and staff development.  They have three career tracks with mentor teachers getting paid as much as superintendents!  I haven’t looked at it too closely, but the idea to make all teachers better at their profession sounds much better than judging us on test scores.

Shelley Klein
Santa Maria, CA
4/22/08

Hello Shelley,

I believe that we are starting to only teach test strategies and not the day to day skills that most students need to survive.  I also agree with you that many students go to middle school educational level are very low, so when they have to take a test at that particular grade level that have problems passing.  I do not believe we have any control of our students.

I think the Singapore method of giving teachers lots of time for planning, collaborating and staff development is great.  I think our school districts needs to check this method out.

Teresa Thomas
Miami, FL
4/22/08

Hello from Santa Barbara,

What follows is a late night rant...please be patient:-)

Holding teachers accountable or giving them merit pay merely on the results of standardized testing, in my opinion, is insane. I know that is a very strong stance to take but if we are to gauge a teacher's performance and mastery  for consideration for merit pay it should be holistic. (The same applies to our students when assessing them.) The evaluation could be based on contribution to the school community as seen by relevant (and relative) leadership and mentoring roles taken on/off campus, professional portfolios that show professional growth over time and reflection, inclusion of student's portfolios that demonstrate how the student attained mastery of content material as a result of the teacher's instruction, consideration of the level of students we are teaching at the time of evaluation, evaluations done by peers and administrators, and exit interviews/evaluations by students in the form of reflections. If standardized testing was truly standard, that is all students came with "standard experiences emotionally, socially, academically and economically" then I would include test scores. However, not all of our students come to us with the same experiences. I'm sure that we could all support that with our observations of the various levels of students we have had the pleasure to teach and learn from. Am I way off target with that? Please let me know.

My ELL and college preparatory students run the gauntlet of varied academic skills and as a result I find myself having to modify my instruction incredibly in order to teach reading and writing skills in order to help them all "equally" access the content material at grade level. As a result I ( as well as you I'm sure) have had to be very creative in  order to balance teaching the skills with the content and get them to a certain point in the curriculum and ready for the appointed time for standardized test. Oh, I failed to mention that with some students I have to of course get them to school first before I can even evaluate where they are at, get them motivated, and then encourage them to consider showing up for testing and do well. With my Gifted and talented or Advanced Placement students I find that most come prepared with the necessary grade level skills required to perform at or above grade level. Differentiation occurs there as well but most of the time is spent on mastery and content. As a result, I agree with Shelly when she says that if I were to be considered for merit pay  on my students success on standardized scores at the end of one year I would be a little concerned about just being judged by my non AP students. The only reason I say that is because standardized tests do not always show the full growth of my non AP students who generally grow incredibly with their academic, social and language skills.

As it is getting late, I would like to end by saying that the best way to help our students is to repeat what several fellows have said in the discussion thus far, and that is, provide teachers with relevant, timely, sustainable, weekly, collaborative professional learning communities where best teaching practices can be shared in a non-threatening and non-competitive environment. If merit pay is to be awarded at a school, the process of how it should be awarded could be established by an open forum of that schools stake holders.

Thank you for being,
Carlos Cohen
4/22/08

In reading Carlos’ response – one thought jumped into my mind.  We need true educational leaders, like the fellows are becoming, to step into key positions within the schools and political arenas.  Once there they can lead the way in educational reform, rather then spout what needs to be done without the time or fiscal support that is needed to make the changes.  At times I feel like the politicians and educational experts are spouting rhetoric from their ivory towers and the teachers in the trenches are the villains in the story because we are not getting with the program.  When in fact the majority of teachers work hard to meet not just the academic needs of our students, but social and emotional needs (as many of my esteemed colleagues have mentioned in their comments). 

Leaders lead the way – managers tell us what to do.  Once we get leaders in key locations within schools, I believe that the necessary change will occur.  We see it in small pockets around the country, and may even seen it stifled be a leader was suppressed by a “ranking” principal or superintendent, that’s why it’s important to get the leaders to those key positions – those at the top can and most often do stifle innovated solutions this “growing” problem. 

We need a call for educational leaders!

Cathy Young
Delaware
4/23/08

As a former TNLI member in Delaware and now working as an administrator, I agree that placing teacher leaders in prominent administrative and/or political positions as education advocates is the direction we need to go.  However, the experiences that I have encountered have not been encouraging as there are still those who “manage” and lead, and they surround themselves with others who tend to follow the “management” style.  True I am only speaking from personal experience and that these are not the ways of all school districts, but trying to think progressively and do what is best for my students when there are those who say “that’s not how it’s done here” has been a frustrating experience.  I fear that we are generations away from seeing teacher leaders truly infiltrate those positions that have a more global influence and not succumb to the “dark side”!

I greatly enjoy reading your conversations and it helps keep me grounded in the true lines of education and the experiences you have in the classroom!

Travis C. Moorman
Delaware
4/23/08

Hello Suzanne,

Reading about your pilot program causes me to think about what happen to just paying teachers a great salary because they are taking on a great responsibility to teach? If teachers have to come up with two objectives for the incentive, will their objectives be scrutinize by others teachers or administrators?  What if a teacher or administrator that is deciding if the objectives meet the standard or not have a problem with a certain teacher that is presented? Do you think that teacher that are presented will get a fair chance? 

I hope this school year for you will be a success with the pilot program.  I really believe no administrators or teachers want to have to tell someone that they did not or can not receive a merit pay. Then there is the other side a teacher or administrator may give their buddies the merit pay just because they are buddies.  I believe for this to work there must be a strict policy on who is judging the teachers goals and assessment at the end of the year.  

Hopefully, this incentive will still have teachers going into the rough schools as well.  Because I believe if teachers are given back the power to run their classroom students will achieve. Students would probably buy in to the program if they see that teachers are given back some power in how their classrooms are run. 

Teresa Thomas
Miami, FL
4/23/08

I have to agree with Teresa’s sentiments.  We should just staff our schools with good teachers.  Merit pay implies that some of us are bad teachers; therefore we don't deserve merit pay.  If we are hired and continue to teach beyond our probationary period, then we should be paid well enough to afford to support our families and buy our own homes -- without merit pay. 

Audra, I love you idea of classroom grants, but I also find it, almost, well offensive, that we would even need to ask for the kinds of things we need to teacher our kids.  We should get them because they are needed.  If we are trusted professionals, then we don't have to prove ourselves to get Smart Boards and listening centers. (I am currently waiting for a donors choose grant for a listening center.)  Our professional judgment and rational justifications should be enough.

I have always thought that public school teachers should have to go through a rigorous, peer-reviewed process for getting certification and, eventually, tenure.  In fact, I think the process should be almost as rigorous as university professors.  That being said, I also believe we should get the kind of "perks" a university professors get -- like our own classrooms or at the least offices, less teaching time and more time to collaborate, reflect, etc. We should also get the support of more clerical staff if the process is going to be more rigorous.  My argument is simple: if you want more out of us, you better put more into supporting us.  I know teachers who taught history without maps, English without full class sets of books, and Geometry without graphing calculators. You get what you pay for. 

 I believe some of the merit pay plans lean more in this direction, but I still resist calling it merit pay.  Having a group of teachers getting merit pay, and others not, makes it look like there is something wrong with our profession.  All teachers should be "good enough" to get the merit pay, if they are not, then we should deal with that.  In essence, we are saying some of our teachers are good enough to teach, just not all of them. What kind of message does this send?  Promotions to lead/mentor teachers seem to be a better path. 

Just my thoughts.  I love hearing what others think.

Anne Looser
New York City, NY
4/23/08

Wow, I need to read these digests more frequently...

I found the discussion on merit pay very interesting.  It is striking to me that teachers are so passionate about the issue of being held accountable for the results of their work.  I fully understand that many systems are imperfect in the way they judge teachers.  I agree with everyone who stated that merit pay systems should be holistic, look at more than a test score, and be objective. But at the end of the day, isn't it our job to get results? 

I work at a charter school and we have a merit pay system. Our merit pay only applies to a bonus. We can earn up to $5,500 at the end of the year based on specific (holistic) goals and expectations. The part of our bonus that has to do with test scores is about growth , not whether or not students are performing at grade level.

I am completely confused by the notion that a merit pay system implies that some teachers are good and some aren't.  Some teachers are bad.  In my opinion many teachers are.  I 100% agree that the bad teachers issue is a separate issue that needs to be dealt with... but when we have unions that protect ineffective teachers, how is that issue going to be addressed?  Maybe if we pay teachers more for getting good results some of the "bad" teachers will be more motivated to work harder!

I teach in a charter school because frankly I was sick of "bad" teachers having more job security and getting paid more than "good" teachers, simply because they have been around longer.  A friend of mine was recently told she was going to lose her position because she was new to her school.  This came after months of accolades about how she is the most expert teacher in the building and she has so much to offer.  If she is the best teacher in the building, why is she being let go?  Seniority and union protection.  I think teachers should be held to a higher standard than that.  Those of us who do our jobs well, who seek professional development, and get results with our students should be paid more, because we are more valuable.

I feel confident in saying these things because I know I am the kind of teacher that gets results.  I know that if the system for giving merit pay is fair and really rewards good teaching and student learning, then it works in my favor. I also know everyone on this list is THAT kind of teacher... so it surprises me that you wouldn't want to be rewarded for your hard work.

Stephanie Bartell
Chicago
4/24/08

Stephanie,

I enjoyed your dialogue and it is frustrating that there are “bad” teachers clogging the way.  However, do not blame the union for “bad” teachers – if administration would get real and do their jobs then the union would not have to defend the “bad” teachers because there would be just cause for firing him/her.  As in any job in the corporate world, you can not fire a person without just cause, it’s all about paperwork – and in corporate America 90 days is the “tenure” limit without just cause not 3 to 5 years!! If the administration evaluations are always satisfactory and no plan is every put into place for the teacher to improve, it is not the union protecting them but administration.  Just wanted to clarify that, as most people think it’s the union’s fault for protecting the “bad” teachers. In a recent discussion with union officials they hate that policy also, but they don’t have options if administration hasn’t done their jobs correctly. 

Cathy Young
4/24/08

Hi Cathy,

I can't argue there... administrators do need to be more effective in dealing with ineffective teachers. I mention the union as a "protective force" because in private and charter schools administrators can more easily get rid of teachers who are not performing. Maybe we can argue that that situation just means that those administrators are doing their jobs better but I'm not sure if I'd go that far.

All I really meant was if there is a teacher who is not getting results in our school, the school can fire him/her without any grief from a union.

I think it is interesting that you bring up the corporate world because I think about that comparison often.  In many corporate jobs you are hired "at will."  You can leave any time and they can fire you any time. I do agree that there needs to be a negative performance review, something that may not exist for underperforming teachers.  But I don't think teachers should be upset about a longer "probationary period."  Isn't the education of our children important enough to demand the very best? Shouldn't teachers continue to be accountable for their performance?  I think if teachers were confident they were doing a good job then they wouldn't need contracts. They wouldn't worry about being fired "for no reason".  They would know that their output would ensure that they would keep their job—just like in the corporate world.

Stephanie Bartell
Chicago
4/24/08

I'm quite curious about how  Stephanie's school truly measures student growth, how fair it is to everyone concerned and if the school is an example of a learning venue where everyone including students, teachers and parents are happy with the merit pay system.  

In my opinion, merit pay will only breed greed and unnecessary competition amongst everyone.  Must we work hard just for the purpose of enriching our very own coffers while our students are swimming in testing and misguided assessments? Could we really be thinking of our own students' welfare if our motivation is to earn that extra thousand dollars?  Will teachers be truly honest about their student scores?  Again, the teaching profession is not like a corporate one.  Someone says, we need to fire teachers who are deemed bad.  To fire or not to fire, this must not be the question...We must strive to help each other, not to step on each other to earn the "bonus."   In addition, the assumption that it is only up to the teacher to increase student score/growth is a big delusion.  We must let everyone in on a not-so secret adage that "It truly takes a village to raise a child," and that testing and scoring high in tests are not the true measure of his abilities/skills.      

The basic premise that each student is unique and learns at her own pace must be carved in stone.  Students will love going to school and thrive in a learning environment where teachers are happy and confident of their place in the world.  Students will learn in a very authentic and meaningful way when we don't focus as much on results.  Therefore, we must, as teachers try to redefine the true meaning of education.  Does "good education" really mean scoring high in a standardized test?  Would we like to teach our students that they must need to work like a maniacs, drill and kill them with just reading and math, claw their way up to the top—for what—earn a lot of dough to afford a dysfunctional, materialistic way of life? For basically, the merit pay system will engender this kind of attitude and expectations in all sorts of way. But then, that is a whole different Pandora's box altogether, isn't it? 

Josey Sadler
San Francisco
4/24/08

Hi Travis! I too believe that there are too many cows and not enough bulls in school districts. Teachers may be the number one indicator of students’ success, but principals set the tone of leadership. I am sure that you are finding out that administration in 25 percent content and 75 percent people skills. I hope you are doing well! We need top administrators that want happy teachers that are productive, this in turn will help our children in getting everything they can get out of a good education.

As a former TNLI, I also love hearing the string of thoughts across the nation in regard to educational issues. Thanks!

Jean Miclet
4/24/08

Hello Jean,

I agree with you and others that we as teachers need to get into leadership positions to benefit our schools.  We know what we need in the school such as supplies, resources, funds and staffs.  We also need more grandparents, parents, uncle, aunt and helping us to get what we need in the schools.  Someone must see that teachers are in need for many things. The cries are in the nation and no one is really listening. 

Teresa Thomas
Miami
4/25/08

On that note, please see an important new study on this very issue:
http://www.calstate.edu/teacherquality/documents/possible_dream.pdf

Cheers,
Pia Lindquist Wong
Sacramento
4/24/08

James Madison has a famous line in The Federalist Paper where he says that if men were angels, we would not need government. Since men are not angels, we need not only government to restrain men, but—as men make up the government—checks on government as well. Madison's pithy comments provide some wise insight into the relationship between human nature and government, and reflect directly on the claims raised here on behalf of providing management with unchecked "at will" power over the employment of teachers [or any other employee, for that matter]. In political thought, arguments for absolute power always assume on the one hand the non-angelic character of those who should be ruled—they need a strong state to keep them in line—and on the other hand, the angelic character of those who will rule—they would never abuse the unchecked power placed in their hands. What Madison's argument does so well for us is point out its internal contradiction. As a radical democrat, I would take the argument a step further, and say that—with Lord Acton's famous maxim—absolute power corrupts absolutely, so if there is a case to be made against assuming the angelic character of a human being, it is the case against those who have unchecked power, not those ruled by such power.

I make this argument in this way because "at will" employment means unchecked power in the hands of the employer. Under this standard, a person can be dismissed at any time for virtually any reason, save those that are specifically prohibited by law, such as overt racial and sexual discrimination [and as we all know so well, such discrimination is rarely done in an overt way]. An "at will" employee can be fired for their political or social views, for their personal life-style, or for a personality conflict with "the boss." Criticism of the employer's policies and practices are grounds for firing.

Sounds excessive? Ask Nicole Byrne Lau, a much loved teacher at Williamsburg Charter School in Brooklyn who received nothing by laudatory evaluations from her supervisors until she shared a salary schedule for teachers in NYC public schools with her colleagues. "At will" employment led to her being fired for that act. Ask the two Los Angeles teachers at Celerity Nascent Charter School who signed a letter of protest their students wrote after the principal forbid them from reading a poem about Emmett Till—whom the principal declared guilty of sexual harassment—at a Black History month assembly. The Principal did not like her version of history or her judgment being questioned, and she fired them. Ask the teachers at Albert Einstein Charter School in New Orleans who were fired for complaining about corporal punishment by school administrators. Ask the 28 year veteran and much loved teacher of Art in "right to work" Texas where there is no collective bargaining and no due process, who lost her job because she took her class on an approved school trip to a Dallas Museum of Art where they happened to spy a nude statue.

What "grief" from a union means in the real world is that before a teacher is fired, she has due process—a hearing, at which the management must show good cause for the firing. You know, sort of like the due process fourth, fifth and sixth amendments in the Bill of Rights. The sort of due process that is designed to make sure that in our desire to convict the guilty, we protect the rights of the innocent. That's the grief that we are told we can do without.

Yes, the corporate world does without that "grief," wherever it can. It makes sure that the Bill of Rights—especially that pesky First Amendment—stops at the workplace door. It fights like the devil to make sure that unions -- believers in workplace democracy and economic democracy -- are kept at bay. With labor law tilted against unions and a Bush controlled National Labor Relations Board which allows corporations to literally fire thousands of workers seeking to organize unions every year [yes, "at will" employment again], it has managed to bring private sector union density down to a point lower than any other time in the 20th century. Human Rights Watch has produced a massive 2000 report, UNFAIR ADVANTAGE: Workers' Freedom of Association in the United States
under International Human Rights Standards, which documented this reality, and the flagrant way in which the US is in violation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the UN Convenant and ILO International Code. That's the corporate world. Close your eyes and put your faith in it at your own peril.

And the bottom line here is that when educational institutions have and use this unchecked power, there is no evidence that it produces anything remotely like better educational results. Overlay a map of the states with "right to work" laws prohibiting collective bargaining for teachers with a map of educational performance. Does "right to work" Mississippi, or "right to work" Alabama lead the nation in educational performance? Do the states with great teacher union density—the New Jerseys, the New Yorks, the Minnesotas, and so on—bring up the rear? Or examine the performance of non-union charter schools, which is at very best mixed.

Enough for one night.

Leo Casey
New York
4/25/08

Hello Stephanie,

I am glad to hear that some school districts are giving bonuses at the end of the school years for holistic, not just a standardized, test. The unions are there supposedly to help everyone, but as you stated some good teachers lose position and some bad ones stay in place. Because of that standard, students are always loosing.  

We all know there many null teachers in schools. Yes, the performing teachers sometimes do not get the pat on their back when they should have. I do know that private and charter schools teachers do get hired and fired more easily then a public school teacher.  As a teacher I enjoyed teaching and I hope to be teaching for awhile. We have to hold out believing that things will get better in our schools.

Teresa Thomas
Miami 
4/25/08

Stephanie,

I agree with some of what you write. Teachers should be responsible for student learning. We should do our best to help them do their best. In your school it sounds like the philosophy is such that teachers are learning from one another and, possibly, from administration.

A couple of my concerns, though, are that while everyone expects teachers to be held accountable for students growing, no one is held accountable for helping teachers grow. We're expected, in many schools, to be experts on every subject from the day we walk in the door. You say you wouldn't mind getting fired for no reason, but I'd argue that a school that fires a teacher without having ever expressed any concerns about his or her teaching is a school that - at the end of the day - does a disservice to its students. A school doesn't communicate expectations and give feedback to teachers is a school that doesn't have it all together when it comes to instructional philosophies either.

The other concern that I see, even in charter schools, but especially in public schools, is that there is usually a preferred curriculum/method/technique to teach. I'm a proven professional who has had student learning improve each year with test scores to back it up. My students learn often despite the flavor of the day being pushed down our throats. I have a problem when a school says, "You're the professional, do what you do best and you'll get a bonus if your students improve. And, oh, by the way, you have to use a reading basal for 2 hours a day, you have to give our unit tests, don't use novels, make sure you nail kids on grammar, use our math book and don't add anything to it because
it's research-based and we know that's what works best, and don't take the kids out of the building because they need as much time in the school reading as they can get. Like we said, do what you do best."

I'm lucky enough to finally be in a school where my administration complete rocks and truly respects me as an educator. I'm able to do my own thing again (and I'm held accountable for student learning, but by all accounts my students are perfectly on track). My previous school, in its second year of existence, will have nearly a 50% turnover in 2 years. Some because of personality-based firings and some because of some of us jumping ship. I'm still in contact with my teacher friends there and many of my students still call me as a sounding board for their new school drama. I'm concerned about "my" kids even though I don't teach them in class any more. If I was fired from a school for no reason, I wouldn't just say "I'm not going to stay where I'm not wanted," but I'd say, "Dang, what's going to happen to *my* kids? They'll get *another* new teacher next year who'll probably get fired or quit too." Is that good for student learning? Administration needs to take some responsibility for grooming teachers who need it and need to provide unobtrusive support for seasoned teachers. Whether admin fires teachers for no reason or creates an atmosphere in which the staff completely turns over every 5 years, students lose out in the end.

Mr. Faren D'Abell
Chicago
4/25/08

Faren,

I agree with Stephanie about administrators needing to be accountable for helping teachers become better and proficient teachers. The reality of who is accountable for the students is we as teachers are.  No matter if you have a student that comes to your fourth grade class not knowing how to read or write his/her name. You as the teacher is accountable if that students do not reach the level that is expected of him/her.  Students come to our classes with different skills, some maybe higher than other but overall every classroom may have one student that is lower than the others.  Because we are given what to teach and told how to teach a particular subject, our creativity is do not come to it fullness and students loses.

Teresa Thomas 
4/25/08

I think what some are trying to say is that administrators need to make sure teachers are made aware of opportunities for them to become better and more proficient teachers, not that administrators are accountable for what we do professionally. Let's be very careful with how we word things. Ultimately, each person whether they are a teacher or administrator is responsible for his/her own professionalism and what they bring to the school setting to make students successful.

Although I believe it would be great for teachers to be recognized more in merit for what they do bring to students and a school's success, this is a very difficult thing since we do not work in the private industry. Ultimately, we are paid by tax paying dollars. The most significant change for education will occur when the average voter who is not an educator themselves realized the daily duties of an educator and administrators in public education today. This is why a collective voice in public education is important. I say let’s not worry so much about merit pay, but how we can collectively work to get teachers in this country recognized as the professionals they are with national salaries which will help to keep the profession of teaching the noble one it is.

L. Kelly Escueta Ayers
Fairfax, Virginia
4/25/08

Kelly,

Yes, some are stating that administrators should be able to help teachers improve in their profession.  I do not think everyone is saying that administrators should be accountable for teacher. If an administrator knows that there are teachers that need improvement in their profession. They should find ways to help those teachers to take classes or workshops.  Yes, everyone is accountable for their own professionalism. 

Every teacher should be acknowledging when any of their students make any learning gain. Whether there is a bonus or merit pay there should be given to the teachers because students are successful.

Teresa Thomas
Miami, FL 
4/25/08

I agree with Stephanie.  Competitiveness is what will probably make this profession more attractive for people who are considering the challenges of becoming a teacher; thus, improving the quality of education in our country.  The only way to succeed in anything is to leave it open for competition and once you are in the profession, to work to improve your teaching techniques for the benefit of students.

Frida Flores-Galliano
Miami, FL
4/26/08

Stephanie,

You raise many points in your piece.  It is terrible to see a great teacher let go because of the policy: last one in, first one out.  However, it is equally upsetting to watch great teachers chased out at the end of their career because they are more expensive then two novice teachers and without a union these senior teachers often don't have a voice.

Also, it seems doubtful to me that "bad" teachers would be motivated by merit pay.  Most likely, they'd just try to find a way to earn the merit pay without giving their all - perhaps by buttering up their supervisors, since the profession itself doesn't motivate them to be their best. 

Finally, I agree that we should get results but talking to teachers. Over the years I have learned that even the greatest of teachers can have their performance impacted by the actions of the administration and the culture of their building.  Teachers don't have a say in how often and how many new students enter their room, how often a developing student is moved out and their break-through then credited to a subsequent teacher, how often their program is changed, how the discipline policy is structured and how it is enforced, whether a student gets the guidance they need to succeed and sometimes, even whether their own professional development is even officially acknowledged.  Even great teachers can have their impact negated or deemed not worthy of merit pay if the deck is stacked against them. I know that this would seem like an odd way to run a school but school culture can sometimes be more about politics and rewarding the most "agreeable" of teachers rather than the hardest-working.  Under these circumstances, merit pay would go to the teachers who do as they are told, rather than what is best for the student.     

Kate O’Hagan
New York City, NY
 4/26/08

The problem with promoting competitiveness is that teaching should be a collaborative endeavor, not a competitive one.

Gail V. Ritchie
Fairfax County, VA
4/27/08

Thanks Dr. Gail!
I agree with your statement 100%. In educating children, isn't the goal for all of them to succeed? If we are to just concentrate on our own classrooms and not worry about the teacher next door (even the "bad ones"), who is going to stand up for their students?

Jane Fung
Los Angeles, CA
4/27/08

I agree with Gail and Jane. As someone who works with graduate students who are pre-service teachers that work for a year in a school as interns. We should be modeling for all that teaching is collaborative and that the end result is the success of our students.

I also agree that promoting competiveness does present a dilemma in that, we need to ask ourselves if it really does help our students to be more successful in the end. I am a firm believer that we all have our own individual strengths as people and educators. Rather than looking at one another’s' weaknesses we should be looking at how we can collectively work together utilizing one another's strengths to benefit students and colleagues.

Isn't this one of the many things that help to make successful professional learning communities?

L. Kelly Escueta Ayers
Fairfax, Virginia
4/27/08

The word competition has been given a negative connotation over the years. It's not necessarily negative. It has made our country great! I see it as a means of improvement, as a motivational tool to continue ahead in any path we choose. It's sort of what makes students work hard to be on their school's Honor Roll. Later, in their careers, they will realize how that hard work will allow them to be better professionals. Besides competitiveness, another great component of education is cooperation; they are not exclusive. Students who lack motivation need more support from the whole community. They can eventually benefit from a competitive environment.  I have seen that students I get from abroad find studying here so easy and unchallenging.  When I ask them how is schooling here different than in their countries, they say that there are few expectations and no competition.

Frida Flores
Miami, FL
4/27/08

Stephanie,

Hello from Miami-Dade.

You said "I am not sure where this notion comes from that teachers are in competition for a bonus. Every teacher has an individual bonus... it's not like there is one we are all fighting for. If every teacher meets the standards and expectations set forth by the
school, every teacher will get the full bonus." I can tell you where this notion comes from. The state of Florida's latest merit pay program is called MAP. It offered our district 20 million dollars for 07-08. However, ONLY 25% of the teachers could earn the merit pay. Additionally, Miami-Dade would have to pony up the money to develop the evaluation tools used in the decision making-to the tune of several million dollars. We have about 20,000 teachers. Do the math. This particular merit pay program would
undoubtedly instigate competition, when we really need collaboration.

If we could find a way to enable anyone and everyone the opportunity to earn a merit pay bonus, then I bet we'd be right on board!

Dianna Rose
Miami, FL
4/27/08

Frida,

Yes, Stephanie has a great idea about competitiveness, but do you really want to compete to get the job that you know you are qualifies to do? Will teachers competing help students academically or will it hurt the students? When a teacher improves in the teaching profession students will learn.  

Teresa Thomas
Miami, FL 
4/27/08

Kate,

You have some valid points.  It is tragic when a great teacher is let go, and a teacher that really do not want to teach stay.  The school districts should think about hiring a retired teacher that has shown remarkable performance in the class or school community to be consultant to help train new teachers or refresh the older ones. You may be right if a bad teacher knows they are not up for merit pay they will look for money another way.

You can be the best teacher you want to be, but if you make any mistakes if my cost you.  One mistake can caused a teacher to loose many things, but when you go that extra mile most time it is not recognize.

Teresa Thomas
Miami, FL
4/27/08

Catherine,

I think your position on this issue is very well articulated.  I agree with all of what you said, particularly in terms of it being the responsibility of the administration to manage 'low performing' teachers (or what some here have called bad teachers) and motivate them to become better, whether it's through incentives or actual, god forbid, management.  I truly believe that's what good managers do, they motivate, inspire, guide, direct, facilitate, etc., basically help teachers do their jobs better.  That's why they get the big bucks.  And, further, I don't think the incentives, the carrots, need to necessarily include merit bonuses. Incentives can include kind words, public recognition, the odd extra prep, taking teacher concerns seriously and professionally, special considerations, and other rewards for a job well done (much like we manage kids in a classroom). The buck needs to stop with the administration - they need to take responsibility for the community they create and the inspiration they offer. I truly believe that no one wants to be bad at their job (lackluster, uninspired), they just often need some help.

Furthermore, one must ask who hired these purportedly 'bad' teachers. Shouldn't district HR be professional enough to vet potential hires?  How about the principals themselves when they interview?  Some of the 'bad' teachers I've met in my experience could not have interviewed that well or professionally to begin with.  I suspect that in high needs, urban areas where there is a ton of turnover, the district would rather keep tossing in the warm bodies than figure out how to really, truly manage the process of new hires and retention.  Hey, if the district administration or the cities initially offered higher salaries for these position, competitive with the corporate market place, they would be getting a lot more applicants and be able to make better, more professional hiring decisions I suspect.  That would probably lead to better retention, less turnover, more consistency and ultimately cost-savings.  It's sheer short sightedness.  Invest now (or maybe back in the 80's/90's), save later (or have fewer issues now).

Chris Peyser
New York City, NY
4/28/08

Chris and Teresa,

Thank you for hitting the nail on the head. It is the responsibility of teachers and administrators to take their roles seriously and to help out one another be the best they can be. Teachers need to be paid like everyone else in the working world but we don't live by "bread$" alone. Positive, collaborative, acknowledging, "managing", professional learning communities are worth their weight in gold and is what pushes the majority of educators to work well beyond what is expected of them. I've seen it on my campus and in the campuses I've provided in services at...even the ones that merit pay is not even an option at.

As scholar-teacher-leaders we need to keep that in the forefront always.

Carlos Cohen
Santa Barbara
4/29/08